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Intrarea Vagonului 26.02.2016 02:05:44

Cele 12 testamente ale patriarhilor, fiii lui Israel
 
Este o apocrifa, plina de miez duhovnicesc. In cele ce urmeaza voi prezenta pe rind aceste opere, urmind ca noi toti sa ne expunem parerea.
Dintre toti forumistii, ii rog sa comenteze îndeosebi pe cei priceputi in acest domeniu: Pelerin spre Rasarit, Mihnea, Mihailc, Delia, etc.
Dupa-amiaza voi incepe copierea textului.

stefan florin 26.02.2016 09:31:17

Citat:

În prealabil postat de Intrarea Vagonului (Post 615200)
Este o apocrifa, plina de miez duhovnicesc. In cele ce urmeaza voi prezenta pe rind aceste opere, urmind ca noi toti sa ne expunem parerea.
Dintre toti forumistii, ii rog sa comenteze îndeosebi pe cei priceputi in acest domeniu: Pelerin spre Rasarit, Mihnea, Mihailc, Delia, etc.
Dupa-amiaza voi incepe copierea textului.

o apocrifa amice, texte vechi?!

Intrarea Vagonului 26.02.2016 10:53:37

Citat:

În prealabil postat de stefan florin (Post 615216)
o apocrifa amice, texte vechi?!

Hehe. touche, amice. Ai dreptate.
Bun, sa clarificam: d-na Dobrin, pe celalalt topic, cita pe unii care la rindul lor, amestecau Biblia cu apocrifele intr-o veselie, ca surse de informatii, punindu-le pe picior de egalitate. Dupa cum probabil se observa cu ochiul liber, eu le citez ca atare, ca apocrife, desi le recunosc uneori extraordinarul lor mesaj. Si mai e apucatura, de care nu se lecuiesc romaniii, dar probabil si masele largi de credinciosi ale altor popoare ortodoxe, anume duhovnicolatria/sanctolatria. Degeaba ragusesc preoti culti si bine intentionati in amvon, exlicind ca sfintii mai si gresesc, ca ei nu se adora, ci se cinstesc, ca duhovnicii si preotii nu sint impecabili si infailibili. Degeaba a tot dat Catalin exemplu de bun-simt cu Grigorie de Nyssa si apocatastasis: se ajunge de la pietism la un foarte subtil politeism/samanism, si ala fals si nenatural.
In fine, acest aspect dureros merita un topic separat. Am vrut sa iti raspund, si ca sa ma explic, si ca sa nu fie 1-0 pentru tine. :10::10::10:

Intrarea Vagonului 26.02.2016 11:00:26

I.—The Testament of Reuben Concerning Thoughts.
 
1. The copy of the Testament of Reuben, what things he charged his sons before he died in the
hundred and twenty-fifth year of his life. When he was sick two years after the death of Joseph,
his sons and his sons’ sons were gathered together to visit him. And he said to them, My children,
I am dying, and go the way of my fathers. And when he saw there Judah and Gad and Asher, his
brethren, he said to them, Raise me up, my brethren, that I may tell to my brethren and to my
children what things I have hidden in my heart, for from henceforth my strength faileth me. And
he arose and kissed them, and said, weeping: Hear, my brethren, give ear to Reuben your father,
what things I command you. And, behold, I call to witness against you this day the God of heaven,
that ye walk not in the ignorance of youth and fornication wherein I ran greedily, and I defiled the
bed of Jacob my father. For I tell you that He smote me with a sore plague in my loins for seven
months; and had not Jacob our father prayed for me to the Lord, surely the Lord would have
destroyed me. For I was thirty years old when I did this evil in the sight of the Lord, and for seven
months I was sick even unto death; and I repented for seven years in the set purpose of my soul
before the Lord. Wine and strong drink I drank not, and flesh entered not into my mouth, and I
tasted not pleasant food,39 mourning over my sin, for it was great. And it shall not so be done in
Israel.
2. And now hear me, my children, what things I saw in my repentance concerning the seven
spirits of error. Seven spirits are given against man from Beliar, and they are chief of the works
of youth; and seven spirits are given to him at his creation, that in them should be done every work
of man.40 The first (1) spirit is of life, with which man’s whole being is created. The second (2)
spirit is of sight, with which ariseth desire. The third (3) spirit is of hearing, with which cometh teaching. The fourth (4) spirit is of smelling, with which taste is given to draw air and breath. The
fifth (5) spirit is of speech, with which cometh knowledge. The sixth (6) spirit is of taste, with
which cometh the eating of meats and drinks; and by them strength is produced, for in food is the
foundation of strength. The seventh (7) spirit is of begetting and sexual intercourse, with which
through love of pleasure sin also entereth in: wherefore it is the last in order of creation, and the
first of youth, because it is filled with ignorance, which leadeth the young as a blind man to a pit,
and as cattle to a precipice.

Intrarea Vagonului 26.02.2016 11:02:37

3. Besides all these, there is an eighth (8) spirit of sleep, with which is created entrancement
of man’s nature, and the image of death. With these spirits are mingled the spirits of error. The
first (1), the spirit of fornication, dwelleth in the nature and in the senses; the second (2) spirit of
insatiateness in the belly; the third (3) spirit of fighting in the liver and the gall. The fourth (4) is
the spirit of fawning and trickery, that through over-officiousness a man may be fair in seeming.
The fifth (5) is the spirit of arrogance, that a man may be stirred up and become high-minded. The
sixth (6) is the spirit of lying, in perdition and in jealousy to feign words, and to conceal41 words
from kindred and friends. The seventh (7) is the spirit of injustice, with which are theft and
pilferings, that a man may work the desire of his heart; for injustice worketh together with the other
spirits by means of craft. Besides all these, the spirit of sleep, the eighth (8) spirit, is conjoined
with error and fantasy. And so perisheth every young man, darkening his mind from the truth, and
10
not understanding the law of God, nor obeying the admonitions of his fathers, as befell me also in
my youth.
And now, children, love the truth, and it shall preserve you. I counsel you, hear ye Reuben
your father. Pay no heed to the sight of a woman, nor yet associate privately with a female under
the authority of a husband, nor meddle with affairs of womankind. For had I not seen Bilhah bathing
in a covered place, I had not fallen into this great iniquity.42 For my mind, dwelling on the woman’s
nakedness, suffered me not to sleep until I had done the abominable deed. For while Jacob our
father was absent with Isaac his father, when we were in Gader, near to Ephratha in Bethlehem,
Bilhah was drunk, and lay asleep uncovered in her chamber; and when I went in and beheld her
nakedness, I wrought that impiety, and leaving her sleeping I departed. And forthwith an angel of
God revealed to my father Jacob concerning my impiety, and he came and mourned over me, and
touched her no more.43
4. Pay no heed, therefore, to the beauty of women, and muse not upon their doings; but walk
in singleness of heart in the fear of the Lord, and be labouring in works, and roaming in study and
among your flocks, until the Lord give to you a wife whom He will, that ye suffer not as I did.
Until my father’s death I had not boldness to look stedfastly into the face of Jacob, or to speak to
any of my brethren, because of my reproach; and even until now my conscience afflicteth me by
reason of my sin. And my father comforted me; for he prayed for me unto the Lord, that the anger
of the Lord might pass away from me, even as the Lord showed me. From henceforth, then, I was
protected, and I sinned not. Therefore, my children, observe all things whatsoever I command you,
and ye shall not sin. For fornication is the destruction of the soul, separating it from God, and bringing it near to idols, because it deceiveth the mind and understanding, and bringeth down young
men into hell before their time. For many hath fornication destroyed; because, though a man be
old or noble, it maketh him a reproach and a laughing-stock with Beliar and the sons of men. For
in that Joseph kept himself from every woman, and purged his thoughts from all fornication, he
found favour before the Lord and men. For the Egyptian woman did many things unto him, and
called for magicians, and offered him love potions, and the purpose of his soul admitted no evil
desire. Therefore the God of my fathers delivered him from every visible and hidden death. For
if fornication overcome not the mind, neither shall Beliar overcome you.

Intrarea Vagonului 26.02.2016 11:09:01

5. Hurtful are women, my children; because, since they have no power or strength over the man, they act subtilly through outward guise how they may draw him to themselves; and whom they cannot overcome by strength, him they overcome by craft. For moreover the angel of God told me concerning them, and taught me that women are overcome by the spirit of fornication more than men, and they devise in their heart against men; and by means of their adornment they deceive first their minds, and instil the poison by the glance of their eye, and then they take them captive by their doings, for a woman cannot overcome a man by force.
Therefore flee fornication, my children, and command your wives and your daughters that they adorn not their heads and their faces; because every woman who acteth deceitfully in these things hath been reserved to everlasting punishment. For thus they allured the Watchers before the flood; and as these continually beheld them, they fell into desire each of the other, and they conceived the act in their mind, and changed themselves into the shape of men, and appeared to them in their
congress with their husbands; and the women, having in their minds desire toward their apparitions,
gave birth to giants, for the Watchers appeared to them as reaching even unto heaven.
6.Beware, therefore, of fornication; and if you wish to be pure in your mind, guard your senses
against every woman. And command them likewise not to company with men, that they also be pure in their mind. For constant meetings, even though the ungodly deed be not wrought, are to them an irremediable disease, and to us an everlasting reproach of Beliar; for fornication hath neither understanding nor godliness in itself, and all jealousy dwelleth in the desire thereof.
Therefore ye will be jealous against the sons of Levi, and will seek to be exalted over them; but ye shall not be able, for God will work their avenging, and ye shall die by an evil death. For to Levi the Lord gave the sovereignty, and to Judah, and to me also with them, and to Dan and Joseph, that we should be for rulers. Therefore I command you to hearken to Levi, because he shall know the law of the Lord, and shall give ordinances for judgment and sacrifice for all Israel until the completion of the times of Christ, the High Priest whom the Lord hath declared. I adjure you by the God of heaven to work truth each one with his neighbour; and draw ye near to Levi in humbleness
of heart, that ye may receive a blessing from his mouth. For he shall bless Israel; and specially Judah, because him hath the Lord chosen to rule over all the peoples. And worship we his Seed, because He shall die for us in wars visible and invisible, and shall be among you an everlasting king.
7. And Reuben died after that he had given command to his sons; and they placed him in a coffin until they bore him up from Egypt, and buried him in Hebron in the double cave where his fathers were.

Urbanophon 26.02.2016 18:48:44

Engleza
 
Desi pot sa zic ca inteleg engleza si o pot vorbi destul de bine, nu pot sa aprofundez texte teologice in aceasta limba germanica.
Aramaica-ebraica-greaca-latina-slava, limbile prin care s-a facut cunoscut revelatia lui Dumnezeu. Limbile germanice sunt ultimele la acest capitol. Am impresia ca savurez un lucru care si-a pierdut mult din aroma, miros, nuanta...

Am eu moftul asta...Totusi daca ai o traducere in romana la ceea ce ai postat ar fi nemaipomenit. :D

Doamne ajuta!

delia31 26.02.2016 19:01:10

Cam misogin pe alocuri, Ruben, pe patul de moarte. Da' in rest, ce sa zic, bune sfaturi le-a lasat urmasilor. Sa se fereasca, in special de desfranare, ca sa nu pateasca ca el in tinerete.

Acuma, Theo (imi dai voie sa-ti zic cum iti zice Pelerin, nu? Ca ai un stil de-a te identifica cu tot felul de ciudati si, mai nou, ciudatenii non-persoane, deh, ce sa-ti spun! Auzi acolo id, intrarea vagonului! ), deci Theo, nu prea stiu ce anume ar fi de comentat in legatura cu textul postat. Ca de obicei, in privinta mea ai expectante cam mari, nu-s nici pe departe asa priceputa cum ti se pare. Vezi ca i-ai uitat pe altii cu adevarat priceputi: Cristian (fostul asa-zis nepriceput) si Ioan Cezar, ca sa nu mai zic si de altii.


De la fragmentul asta,...
Citat:

În prealabil postat de Intrarea Vagonului (Post 615224)
The first (1), the spirit of fornication, dwelleth in the nature and in the senses; the second (2) spirit of insatiateness in the belly; the third (3) spirit of fighting in the liver and the gall. The fourth (4) is the spirit of fawning and trickery, that through over-officiousness a man may be fair in seeming. The fifth (5) is the spirit of arrogance, that a man may be stirred up and become high-minded. The
sixth (6) is the spirit of lying, in perdition and in jealousy to feign words, and to conceal41 words from kindred and friends. The seventh (7) is the spirit of injustice, with which are theft and pilferings, that a man may work the desire of his heart; for injustice worketh together with the other spirits by means of craft. Besides all these, the spirit of sleep, the eighth (8) spirit, is conjoined
with error and fantasy. And so perisheth every young man, darkening his mind from the truth, and not understanding the law of God, nor obeying the admonitions of his fathers, as befell me also in my youth..

...gandul m-a dus la cele 8 ganduri sau logismoi sau duhuri ale rautatii din Praktikos-ul lui Evagrie Ponticul, sau mai cunoscute sub numele de cele 8 patimi ale sufletului de la care ni se trag toate belelele si maladiile spirituale: lacomia pantecelui, desfranarea, iubirea de arginti, intristarea, mania, akedia (trandavia), kenodoxia (slava desarta) si mandria.

Bine, in lista lui Ruben sunt in alta ordine, nu cauzala ca la Evagrie, si putin modificate, dar se vede treaba ca Duhul care i le-a revelat lui, le-a descoperit si lui Evagrie si pustncilor din primele veacuri crestine, si pana azi, tuturor celor deprinsi cu lucrarea curatirii de patimi.

Nu mi-e prea clar ce-i cu prima lista de 7 duhuri/puteri, plus inca una separat, de care vorbeste Ruben si impotriva carora lupta contrapunctic cele 7 duhuri ale rautatii, plus inca una separat. Probabil se refera la puterile sufletesti dar le amesteca cu cele 5 simturi. Nu stiu, mi se pare cam nebulos paragraful acela pentru mintile noastre postmoderniste.


In principiu, sfaturile lui Ruben catre urmasii lui sunt valabile si atunci si acum, cu nuanta ca dupa Intrupare, omul, (fiindu-i redat prin tainele Ecclesiei, harul pierdut de Adam), are mai multe sanse de izbanda impotriva duhurilor rautatii. Ma rog, daca invata din patania primului Adam cum sa nu cada in prima capcana ivita in cale dar si din pataniile sfintilor care chiar de au si cazut, L-au chemat pe Hristos sa-i ridice de cate ori s-a intamplat.

(Discutia despre patania lui Adam si toata hermeneutica caderii e un subiect fabulos, cu extensii nebanuite in toate planurile fiintarii umane, imposibil de capturat in discutii pe un forum, fara o asceza serioasa, nici macar doar asa livresc, si inca fara serioase achizitii prealabile, mai intai, in domeniul limbajului sacru si al metalimbajului Scripturii. Sustin mereu ca primele doua capitole din cartea Facerii reprezinta cel mai complex tratat de Metafizica in stare pura, in a carui textura fin-intricata a metatextului se afla un univers fabulos de intelesuri. Dar pentru asta, e musai lectura fara prejudecati, de preferat cu comentarii despre sensurile originare din ebraica si greaca, si neaparat talcuiri auxiliare ale limbajului sacru. Inchid paranteza).

Revin la Ruben. Interesant, ca de la Adam incoace, putini sunt cei ce au invatat din caderea lui fara sa fi experimentat propria cadere. Ruben nu face exceptie. Pana nu s-a imbatat cu licoarea otravitoare a pacatului desfraului, mintea lui n-a avut odihna.

De aceea se pune pe sine ca exemplu de "Asa nu! " si il da ca pilda de urmat pe Iosif. Le si zice fiilor lui ca daca duhul desfranarii n-a putut sa biruiasca mai intai mintea lui Iosif, oricate mestesuguri vrajite i-ar fi facut prin sotia Faraonului, atunci Veliar nu a avut putere nici asupra trupului lui.

De aceea, mi-a placut cum zice el, Dumnezeu l-a pazit pe Iosif de orice moarte vazuta sau nevazuta.
Citat:

În prealabil postat de Intrarea Vagonului (Post 615224)
Therefore the God of my fathers delivered him from every visible and hidden death. For
if fornication overcome not the mind, neither shall Beliar overcome you.

Ceea ce, de altfel ne spune toata traditia si experienta ascetilor.
"...Dar trebuie sa punem diagnoza gandurilor patimase, prin care se savarseste tot pacatul. Gandurile in care se cuprind toate pacatele sunt opt: lacomia pantecului, desfraul, filarghiria ( iubirea de arginti), mania, intristarea, akedia (trandavia), slava desarta si mandria. Ca aceste opt ganduri (logismoi) sa ne tulbure sau sa nu ne tulbure, nu depinde de noi. Dar ca sa staruiasca sau ca sa nu staruiasca sau ca sa aprinda patimile sau ca sa nu le starneasca, atarna de noi" ( Sf. Ioan Damaschin).

Intrarea Vagonului 26.02.2016 19:51:29

Citat:

În prealabil postat de delia31 (Post 615293)
Cam misogin pe alocuri, Ruben, pe patul de moarte. Da’ in rest, ce sa zic, bune sfaturi le-a lasat urmasilor. Sa se fereasca, in special de desfranare, ca sa nu pateasca ca el in tinerete.

Acuma, Theo (imi dai voie sa-ti zic cum iti zice Pelerin, nu? Ca ai un stil de-a te identifica cu tot felul de ciudati si, mai nou, ciudatenii non-persoane, deh, ce sa-ti spun! Auzi acolo id, intrarea vagonului! ), deci Theo, nu prea stiu ce anume ar fi de comentat in legatura cu textul postat. Ca de obicei, in privinta mea ai expectante cam mari, nu-s nici pe departe asa priceputa cum ti se pare. Vezi ca i-ai uitat pe altii cu adevarat priceputi: Cristian (fostul asa-zis nepriceput) si Ioan Cezar, ca sa nu mai zic si de altii.


De la fragmentul asta,…

...gandul m-a dus la cele 8 ganduri sau logismoi sau duhuri ale rautatii din Praktikos-ul lui Evagrie Ponticul, sau mai cunoscute sub numele de cele 8 patimi ale sufletului de la care ni se trag toate belelele si maladiile spirituale: lacomia pantecelui, desfranarea, iubirea de arginti, intristarea, mania, akedia (trandavia), kenodoxia (slava desarta) si mandria.

Bine, in lista lui Ruben sunt in alta ordine, nu cauzala ca la Evagrie, si putin modificate, dar se vede treaba ca Duhul care i le-a revelat lui, le-a descoperit si lui Evagrie si pustncilor din primele veacuri crestine, si pana azi, tuturor celor deprinsi cu lucrarea curatirii de patimi.

Nu mi-e prea clar ce-i cu prima lista de 7 duhuri/puteri, plus inca una separat, de care vorbeste Ruben si impotriva carora lupta contrapunctic cele 7 duhuri ale rautatii, plus inca una separat. Probabil se refera la puterile sufletesti dar le amesteca cu cele 5 simturi. Nu stiu, mi se pare cam nebulos paragraful acela pentru mintile noastre postmoderniste.


In principiu, sfaturile lui Ruben catre urmasii lui sunt valabile si atunci si acum, cu nuanta ca dupa Intrupare, omul, fiindu-i redat prin tainele Ecclesiei, harul pierdut de Adam, are mai multe sanse de izbanda impotriva duhurilor rautatii. Ma rog, daca invata din patania primului Adam cum sa nu cada in prima capcana ivita in cale dar si din pataniile sfintilor care chiar de au si cazut, L-au chemat pe Hristos sa-i ridice de cate ori s-a intamplat.

(Discutia despre patania lui Adam si toata hermeneutica caderii e un subiect fabulos, cu extensii nebanuite in toate planurile fiintarii umanitatii, imposibil de capturat in discutii pe un forum, fara o asceza serioasa, nici macar doar asa livresc, si inca fara serioase achizitii prealabile, mai intai, in domeniul limbajului sacru si al metalimbajului Scripturii. Sustin mereu ca primele doua capitole din cartea Facerii reprezinta cel mai complex tratat de Metafizica in stare pura, in a carui textura fin-intricata a metatextului se afla un univers fabulos de intelesuri. Dar pentru asta, e musai lectura fara prejudecati, de preferat cu comentarii despre sensurile originare din ebraica si greaca, si neaparat talcuiri auxiliare ale limbajului sacru. Inchid paranteza).

Revin la Ruben. Interesant, ca de la Adam incoace, putini sunt cei ce au invatat din caderea lui fara sa fi experimentat propria cadere. Ruben nu face exceptie. Pana nu s-a imbatat cu licoarea otravitoare a pacatului desfraului, mintea lui n-a avut odihna.

De aceea se pune pe sine ca exemplu de "Asa nu! " si il da ca pilda de urmat pe Iosif. Le si zice fiilor ca daca duhul desfranarii n-a putut sa biruiasca mai intai mintea lui Iosif, oricate mestesuguri vrajite i-ar fi facut prin sotia Faraonului, atunci Veliar nu a avut putere nici asupra trupului lui.

De aceea, mi-a placut cum zice el, Dumnezeu l-a pazit pe Iosif de orice moarte vazuta sau nevazuta.


Ceea ce, de altfel ne spune toata traditia si experienta ascetilor.
"...Dar trebuie sa punem diagnoza gandurilor patimase, prin care se savarseste tot pacatul. Gandurile in care se cuprind toate pacatele sunt opt: lacomia pantecului, desfraul, filarghiria ( iubirea de arginti), mania, intristarea, akedia (trandavia), slava desarta si mandria. Ca aceste opt ganduri (logismoi) sa ne tulbure sau sa nu ne tulbure, nu depinde de noi. Dar ca sa staruiasca sau ca sa nu staruiasca sau ca sa aprinda patimile sau ca sa nu le starneasca, atarna de noi" ( Sf. Ioan Damaschin).

Multumesc mult, sora. Pai tot forumul e invitat, logic. Eu ma gindisem la biblistii forumului, de aia pusesem lista aceea succinta. Id-urile mele sint expresia unei nostalgii pentru altceva-decit-umanitatea/situatia-actuala. Intrarea Vagonului e o strada. Pe care, cindva, trecea un tren. O linie industriala pe care noi copiii o foloseam fie ca sursa inepuizabila de seminte uleioase, fie ca si cale de a face blatul in relativul necunoscut. Si insasi ideea de linie industriala aproape a fost aneantizata in rapacele Bucuresti neocapitalist de astazi. Pentru mine, acele linii de tren, tramvaie, etc., sunt acum un simbol al unei sigurante si fiabilitati sociale pierdute de romani.
Cit despre alte aidiuri...imperiul Sith al lui Vitiate imi evoca ceva intre URSS-ul lui Brejnev (lorzii Sith erau un fel de secretari de partid) si Japonia la momentul maximei faramitari feudale (Dark Council e un fel de Shogun colectiv). :) Darth Marr e modelul de dictator militar luminat. NU ma identific decit forumistic si pe-jumatate-glumet cu asa ceva. E pur si simplu un debuseu.
OK, gata cu offtopicele. Imi place mult acest gen de literatura straveche. Insa o privesc excat pe ce este: poezie duhovnceasca. NU o amestec cu Scriptura sau Patristica. Voi continua sa postez si restul testamentelor.

ahilpterodactil 26.02.2016 20:00:06

Citat:

În prealabil postat de Intrarea Vagonului (Post 615313)
Imi place mult acest gen de literatura straveche. Insa o privesc excat pe ce este: poezie duhovnceasca.

Hopa? Cum adica, Intrare?
Pai frate, n-ai tu intrari si vagoane cate linii se intretaie si se deschid in poezia duhovniceasca!
De poezie zici tu?
Si inca, duhovniceasca?
Mai, ia vezi ca ai intrat cu vagonu-n gard!........:))


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