ORTODOXIA SI ECUMENISMUL

[doctor_faustus]

În prealabil postat de Erethorn

Citatele de mai sus sunt din Catehezele Sfantului Chiril al Ierusalimului. Daca dumneavoastra aveti un link catre o varianta in romana pe net, va rog sa ne ajutati. Daca nu, Catehezele se gasesc de vanzare la pangarele bisericilor ortodoxe. Daca gasiti vreo "masluire" sau "frauda", va rog sa aduceti dovezi. Daca nu, va rog sa va cereti scuze.

Mai urmeaza si alte citate din Sfintii Parinti rasariteni care recunosc si sustin primatul papal.

Problema este însă că spre deosebire de papistaşi Sfântul Petru nu era un eretic !!

[Erethorn]

În prealabil postat de doctor_faustus

Problema este însă că spre deosebire de papistaşi Sfântul Petru nu era un eretic !!

Problema era daca exista Sfinti Parinti Rasariteni care au recunoscut primatul papal.

Dupa cum era de asteptat, atunci cand nu va convin argumentele si dovezile catolicilor, schimbati subiectul.

Ca sa ramanem la subiect, haideti sa vedem ce-a avut de spus Sfantul Maxim Marturisitorul:

The extremities of the earth, and everyone in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the Most Holy Roman Church and her confession and faith, as to a sun of unfailing light awaiting from her the brilliant radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers, according to that which the inspired and holy Councils have stainlessly and piously decreed. For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest Church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of the orthodox confession and right faith in Him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, and she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks against the Most High. (Maximus, Opuscula theologica et polemica, Migne, Patr. Graec. vol. 90)

How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter and Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate .....even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome. (Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)

If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God ...Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to pursuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, accodring to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and surpreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world. (Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).

[doctor_faustus]

În prealabil postat de Erethorn

Problema era daca exista Sfinti Parinti Rasariteni care au recunoscut primatul papal.

Domnule ceea ce dumneata te faci că nu înţelegi este că un eretic pur şi simplu nu poate conduce Biserica lui Hristos !!! Asta ca să nu mai punem la socoteală masacrele şi măcelurile de care se face vinovată aşa-zisa biserică latină şi în principal unii dintre papi !!

[Erethorn]

Dupa cum spuneam mai sus, si vad ca tineti cu tot dinadinsul sa imi dati dreptate, "strategia" dumneavoastra este sa schimbati subiectul cand nu aveti argumente.

Despre "masacrele" bisericii latine ati deschis alt subiect, la care vad ca ati renuntat dupa ce un alt ortodox v-a atras atentia, pe buna dreptate, ca nici ortodoxiei nu i-au fost straine niscaiva ucideri de eretici.

Ca sa ne intoarcem la subiectul de care vad ca fugiti, iata cateva citate din Sfantul Ioan Gura de Aur privitoare la primatul petrin:

Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles, the First in the Church, the Friend of Christ, who received a revelation, not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, 'Blessed art thou, This very Peter and when I name Peter I name that unbroken Rock, that firm Foundation, the Great Apostle, First of the disciples, the First called, and the First who obeyed he was guilty ...even denying the Lord." (Chrysostom, T. ii. Hom)

Peter, the Leader of the choir of Apostles, the Mouth of the disciples, the Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the faith, the Foundation of the confession, the Fisherman of the universe. (Chrysostom, T. iii Hom).

Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church. (Chrys. In illud hoc Scitote)

(Peter), the foundation of the Church, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the Apostles, the vehement lover of Christ ...he who ran throughout the whole world, who fished the whole world; this holy Coryphaeus of the blessed choir; the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world. (De Eleemos, iii. 4; Hom. de decem mille tal. 3)

In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples (Acts 15), both as being ardent, and as intrusted by Christ with the flock ...he first acts with authority in the matter, as having all put into his hands ; for to him Christ said, 'And thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren. (Chrysostom, Hom. iii Act Apost. tom. ix.)

He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ' 'Simon, Simon,' etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2). God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: 'Simon, Simon, etc.' (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in Joan 5).

And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15). He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18). And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world. (Chrysostom, In Joan. Hom. 1xxxviii. n. 1, tom. viii)

[doctor_faustus]

Domnule latin, ceea ce, repet, dumneata încerci să escaladezi este faptul că un eretic nu poate să aibă primat asupra Bisericii Adevărului, şi dacă nu poate un eretic, cu atât mai puţin poate o instituţie care profesează erezii de sute ani încoace. Prin urmare degeaba îmi aduceţi citate despre Sfântul Petru pentru că în instituţia papală nu este sfântul Petru, ci instituţia papală este locuită de multe sute de ani de eretici în toată regula indiferent de cât credeţi voi şi vă faceţi în continuare iluzia că Filioque nu ar fi o erezie trinitară. Prin urmare din punctul de vedere al Bisericii Ortodoxe papalitatea eretică şi schismatică nu are şi nici nu poate avea nici un fel de primat în Biserica Ortodoxă, singurul primat pe care eventual poate să îl aibă şi pe care de facto îl şi are este un primat în materie de erezie; într-adevăr la capitolul erezie papalitatea are un primat la care se pare că nu vrea să renunţe cu nici un chip !!!

[Erethorn]

Mi se par delicioase discutiile cu dumneavoastra. Doar la gradinita mai intalnesc asemenea atitudini.


1. userul ioannistor: "ce argumente extrase din Sfintii Parinti ai pentru primatul papal ?"

2. userul Erethorn citeaza din trei Sfinti Parinti rasariteni care marturisesc primatul petrin/papal.

3. userul doctor_faustus: "ba, voi sunteti eretici".


Apropo, hai sa vedem ce spune despre primatul papal Sfantul Sofronie, Patriarh al Constantinopolului:

Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church. (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)

Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy. (Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, 893)

[andreicozia]

În prealabil postat de doctor_faustus

Prin urmare degeaba îmi aduceţi citate despre Sfântul Petru pentru că în instituţia papală nu este sfântul Petru, ci instituţia papală este locuită de multe sute de ani de eretici în toată regula indiferent de cât credeţi voi şi vă faceţi în continuare iluzia că Filioque nu ar fi o erezie trinitară.

Eretici nu, mergi prea departe.
Catolicii NU SUNT ERETICI. FACI O MARE GRESEALA!

In schimb Petru nici nu a calcat in Roma vreodata el ramanind in Iudeea, dupa Inaltarea Mintuitorului, alaturi de familia, casa si gospodaria sa, ca de altfel si restul ucenicilor Lui.
Sub nici o forma nu si-ar fi lasat el familia de izbeliste.

Restul de povesti sunt inventate.

[doctor_faustus]

Domnule latin, ceea ce, repet, dumneata încerci să escaladezi este faptul că un eretic nu poate să aibă primat asupra Bisericii Adevărului, şi dacă nu poate un eretic, cu atât mai puţin poate o instituţie care profesează erezii de sute ani încoace. Prin urmare degeaba îmi aduceţi citate despre Sfântul Petru pentru că în instituţia papală nu este sfântul Petru, ci instituţia papală este locuită de multe sute de ani de eretici în toată regula indiferent de cât credeţi voi şi vă faceţi în continuare iluzia că Filioque nu ar fi o erezie trinitară. Prin urmare din punctul de vedere al Bisericii Ortodoxe papalitatea eretică şi schismatică nu are şi nici nu poate avea nici un fel de primat în Biserica Ortodoxă, singurul primat pe care eventual poate să îl aibă şi pe care de facto îl şi are este un primat în materie de erezie; într-adevăr la capitolul erezie papalitatea are un primat la care se pare că nu vrea să renunţe cu nici un chip !!!

[Erethorn]

Incepeti sa va repetati. Intrati in faza : "Ba nu. Ba nu. Ba nu. etc"

Haideti sa vedem ce are de spus despre primatul papal Sfantul Teodor Studitul, ca tot a fost praznuit acum cateva zile, in 11 noiembrie:

Writing to Pope Leo III:
Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven. (Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)

Writing to Pope Paschal:
Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter. Hither, then, from the West, imitator of Christ, arise and repel not for ever (Ps. xliii. 23). To thee spake Christ our Lord: 'And thou being one day converted, shalt strengthen thy brethren.' Behold the hour and the place. Help us, thou that art set by God for this. Stretch forth thy hand so far as thou canst. Thou hast strength with God, through being the first of all. (Letter of St. Theodore and four other Abbots to Pope Paschal, Bk. ii Ep. 12, Patr. Graec. 99, 1152-3)

Writing to Emperor Michael:
Order that the declaration from old Rome be received, as was the custom by Tradition of our Fathers from of old and from the beginning. For this, O Emperor, is the highests of the Churches of God, in which first Peter held the Chair, to whom the Lord said: Thou art Peter ...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Theodore, Bk. II. Ep. 86)

I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

In truth we have seen that a manifest successor of the prince of the Apostles presides over the Roman Church. We truly believe that Christ has not deserted the Church here (Constantinople), for assistance from you has been our one and only aid from of old and from the beginning by the providence of God in the critical times. You are, indeed the untroubled and pure fount of orthodoxy from the beginning, you the calm harbor of the whole Church, far removed from the waves of heresy, you the God-chosen city of refuge. (Letter of St. Theodor and Four Abbots to Pope Paschal).

Let him (Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople) assemble a synod of those with whom he has been at variance, if it is impossible that representatives of the other Patriarchs should be present, a thing which might certainly be if the Emperor should wish the Western Patriarch (the Roman Pope) to be present, to whom is given authority over an ecumenical synod; but let him make peace and union by sending his synodical letters to the prelate of the First See. (Theodore the Studite, Patr. Graec. 99, 1420)

[doctor_faustus]

Domnule latin, ceea ce, repet, dumneata încerci să escaladezi este faptul că un eretic nu poate să aibă primat asupra Bisericii Adevărului, şi dacă nu poate un eretic, cu atât mai puţin poate o instituţie care profesează erezii de sute ani încoace. Prin urmare degeaba îmi aduceţi citate despre Sfântul Petru pentru că în instituţia papală nu este sfântul Petru, ci instituţia papală este locuită de multe sute de ani de eretici în toată regula indiferent de cât credeţi voi şi vă faceţi în continuare iluzia că Filioque nu ar fi o erezie trinitară. Prin urmare din punctul de vedere al Bisericii Ortodoxe papalitatea eretică şi schismatică nu are şi nici nu poate avea nici un fel de primat în Biserica Ortodoxă, singurul primat pe care eventual poate să îl aibă şi pe care de facto îl şi are este un primat în materie de erezie; într-adevăr la capitolul erezie papalitatea are un primat la care se pare că nu vrea să renunţe cu nici un chip !!!