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Vechi 25.03.2010, 22:32:36
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Implicit Dovezi din primele secole -Sfanta Impartasanie reala

din pacate,e in engleza. THE DIDACHE (60)

The Didache or "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" is a manuscript which was used by 2nd century bishops and priests for the instruction of catechumens. Many early Christian writers have referenced it making this document relatively easy to date.
"Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: 'Do not give to dogs what is sacred'".
-Ch. 9:5
"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: 'In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations.'"
-Ch 14



St. Clement (80)
was the third successor of Peter as Bishop of Rome; otherwise known as the third Pope.
"Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity."
Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians
"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."
Source: Letter to the Corinthians, [44,4]



St. Ignatius(110)
became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr's crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena.
"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us.[…]They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."
"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.
"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."
-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.
"I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."
-"Letter to the Romans", paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.
"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."
-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.




St. Justin Martyr(148)
was born a pagan but converted to Christianity after studying philosophy. He was a prolific writer and many Church scholars consider him the greatest apologist or defender of the faith from the 2nd century. He was beheaded with six of his companions some time between 163 and 167 A.D.
"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."
"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.
Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.' It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."
-"Dialogue with Trypho", [41: 8-10]


ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS (180)

St. Irenaeus succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp. Considered, one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.
[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."
Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:
"So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God's gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ's Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, 'For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones' (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of 'spiritual' and 'invisible' man, 'for a spirit does not have flesh an bones' (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and 'the grain of wheat falls into the earth' (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ."
-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely
Named Gnosis". Book 5:2, 2-3, circa 180 A.D.
"For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection."
-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis". Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D.
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Vechi 25.03.2010, 22:33:09
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ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (200)

St. Clement of Alexandria studied under Pantaenus. He later succeeded him as the director of the school of catechumens in Alexandria, Egypt around the year 200 A.D.,
"The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.",
-"The Instructor of the Children". [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,
"The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. 'Eat My Flesh,' He says, 'and drink My Blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!",
-"The Instructor of the Children" [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D.. ,

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (246)

St. Cyprian of Carthage converted from paganism to Christianity around the year 246 A.D. Soon afterwards, he aspired to the priesthood and eventually was ordained Bishop of Carthage. He was beheaded for his Faith in the year 258 A.D., thus he was the first African bishop to have been martyred.,
"So too the the sacred meaning of the Pasch lies essentially in the fact, laid down in Exodus, that the lamb - slain as a type of Christ - should be eaten in one single home. God says the words: 'In one house shall it be eaten, ye shall not cast its flesh outside.' The flesh of Christ and the Lord's sacred body cannot be cast outside, nor have believers any other home but the one Church.",
-"The Unity of the Universal Church". Ch.8, circa 249-258 A.D.,
Description of an event in which an infant was taken to a pagan sacrifice and then the mother recovered it and brought it to Mass.
"Listen to what happened in my presence, before my very eyes. There was a baby girl, whose parents had fled and had, in their fear, rather improvidently lift it in the charge of its nurse. The nurse took the helpless child to the magistrates. There, before the idol where the crowds were flocking, as it was too young to eat the flesh, they gave it some bread dipped in what was left of the wine offered by those who had already doomed themselves. Later, the mother recovered her child. But the girl could not reveal or tell the wicked thing that had been done, any more than she had been able to understand or ward it off before. Thus, when the mother brought her in with her while we were offering the Sacrifice, it was through ignorance that this mischance occurred. But the infant, in the midst of the faithful, resenting the prayer and the offering we were making, began to cry convulsively, struggling and tossing in a veritable brain-storm, and for all its tender age and simplicity of soul, was confessing, as if under torture, in every way it could, its consciousness of the misdeed. Moreover, when the sacred rites were completed and the deacon began ministering to those present, when its turn came to receive, it turned its little head away as if sensing the divine presence, it closed its mouth, held its lips tight, and refused to drink from the chalice. The deacon persisted and, in spite of its opposition, poured in some of the consecrated chalice. There followed choking and vomiting. The Eucharist could not remain in a body or mouth that was defiled; the drink which had been sanctified by Our Lord's blood returned from the polluted stomach. So great is the power of the Lord, and so great His majesty!",
-"The Lapsed" Ch. 25, circa 249-258 A.D.,
"There was a woman too who with impure hands tried to open the locket in which she was keeping Our Lord's holy body, but fire flared up from it and she was too terrified to touch it. And a man who, in spite of his sin, also presumed secretly to join the rest in receiving sacrifice offered by the bishop, was unable to eat or even handle Our Lord's sacred body; when he opened his hands, he found he was holding nothing but ashes. By this one example it was made manifest that Our Lord removes Himself from one who denies Him, and that what is received brings no blessing to the unworthy, since the Holy One has fled and the saving grace is turned to ashes.",
-"The Lapsed" Ch. 26, circa 249-258 A.D.,
Moreover, we ask that this bread be given daily, lest we, who are in Christ and receive the Eucharist daily as food of salvation, with the intervention of some more grievous sin, while we are shut off and as non-communicants are kept from the heavenly bread, be separated from the body of Christ as He Himself declares, saying: 'I am the bread of life which came down from heaven. If any man eat of my bread he shall live forever. Moreover, the bread that I shall give is my flesh for the life of the world.' Since then He says that, if anyone eats of His bread, he lives forever, as it is manifest that they live who attain to His body and receive the Eucharist by right of communion, so on the other hand we must fear and pray lest anyone, while he is cut off and separated from the body of Christ, remain apart from salvation, as He Himself threatens, saying: 'Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.' And so we petition that our bread, that is Christ, be given us daily, so that we, who abide and live in Christ, may not withdraw from His sanctification and body.",
Source: St. Cyprian of Carthage, the Lord's Prayer, 252 A.D., chapter 18:,




SERAPION

"'Holy, holy, holy Lord Sabaoth, heaven and earth is full of Your glory.' Heaven is full, and full is the earth with your magnificent glory, Lord of Virtues. Full also is this Sacrifice, with your strength and your communion; for to You we offer this living Sacrifice, this unbloody oblation.,
To you we offer this bread, the likeness of the Body of the Only-begotten. This bread is the likeness of His holy Body because the Lord Jesus Christ, on the night on which He was betrayed, took bread and broke and gave to His disciples, saying, 'Take and eat, this is My Body, which is being broken for you, unto the remission of sins.' On this account too do we offer the Bread, to bring ourselves into the likeness of His death; and we pray: Reconcile us all, O God of truth, and be gracious to us. And just as this Bread was scattered over the mountains and when collected was made one, so too gather Your holy Church from every nation and every country and every city and village and house and make it one living Catholic Church.,
We offer also the cup, the likeness of His Blood, because the Lord Jesus Christ took the cup after He had eaten, and He said to His disciples, 'Take, drink, this is the new covenant, which is My Blood which is being poured out for you unto the remission of sins.' For this reason too we offer the chalice, to benefit ourselves by the likeness of His Blood. O God of truth, may Your Holy Logos come upon this Bread, that the Bread may become the Body of the Logos, and on this Cup, that the Cup may become the Blood of the Truth. And make all who communicate receive the remedy of life, to cure every illness and to strengthen every progress and virtue; not unto condemnation, O God of truth, nor unto disgrace and reproach!,
For we invoke You, the Increate, through Your Only-begotten in the Holy Spirit. Be merciful to this people, sent for the destruction of evil and for the security of Your Church. We beseech You also on behalf of all the departed, of whom also this is the commemoration: - after the mentioning of their names: - Sanctify these souls, for You know them all; sanctify all who have fallen asleep in the Lord and count them among the ranks of Your saints and give them a place and abode in your kingdom. Accept also the thanksgiving of Your people and bless those who offer the oblations and the Thanksgivings, and bestow health and integrity and festivity and every progress of soul and body on the whole of this Your people through your Only-begotten Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit, as it was and is and will be in generations of generations and unto the whole expanse of the ages of ages. Amen.",
-"The Sacramentary of Serapion, Prayer of the Eucharistic Sacrifice" [13],

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths."
(2 Tim 4:1-4)
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  #3  
Vechi 29.03.2010, 09:28:05
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Dumitru73 Dumitru73 is offline
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De mare ajutor ai fi daca ai posta in limba romana.
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Vechi 29.03.2010, 10:44:05
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E tiparita in limba romana in colectia "Parinti si Scriitori Bisericesti" (PSB), volumul 1, mi se pare.

Daca il are cineva in format pdf, il poate posta aici ca atasament.
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Vechi 07.04.2010, 18:02:52
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anul 60-Didahia celor 12 Apostoli-„În biserică să-ți mărturisești păcatele tale și să nu te duci la rugăciune cu conștiința rea“ (IV, 14, p.29).
Nimeni să nu mănânce, nici să bea din Euharistia voastră, ci acei care au fost botezați în numele Domnului. Căci cu privire la aceasta, a spus Domnul: «Nu dați ceea ce este sfânt câinilor»“ -Prezenta reala a lui Hristos in Sfanta Impartasanie(transformarea painii si a vinului).

anul 80-Sfantul Clement (al treilea successor al Sf Apostol Petru)
"Domnul ne-a ordonat sa aducem jertfe si servicii,la anumite ore fixe”.
-Scrisoare Corintenilor

anul 110-Sfantul Ignatie(arhiepiscopul bisericii care i-a trimis pe Pavel si Varnava in prima lor calatorie misionara,martir):
[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Ioana/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]"Dar sa ne referim la eterodocsii(n.a:dovada existentei Bisericii Ortodoxe in primul secol;inca din anul 33) care au o opinie diferita despre harul lui Hristos care a venit asupra noastra,cat de mult se impotriveste aceasta voii lui Dumnezeu.Ei se abtin de la Sfanta Impartasanie si de la rugaciune,pentru ca marturisesc ca Impartasania nu ar fi Trupul Mantuitorului nostru Iisus Hristos,Care a patimit pentru pacatele noastre,si pe care Tatal,in bunatatea Sa,L-a ridicat din nou...De aceea este bine ca fiecare sa se tina departe de asemenea oameni(n.a: adica de fondatori)...si sa ia aminte la Evanghelie,in care ni s-a revelat patima ,iar Invierea a fost pe deplin dovedita".
"Scrisoare catre Smyrnaeans", paragraf 6. circa 80-110 A.D

"[…]sa frangem o Paine,care e medicamentul nemuririi si antidot impotriva mortii, care ne face sa incepem sa traim,pentru totdeauna,in Hristos.
-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.
"Vreau Painea lui Dumnezeu,care este Carnea lui Hristos, Fiul lui David;si,ca bautura,doresc Sangele Lui,care e dragoste ce nu poate fi distrusa."
-"Letter to the Romans", paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.
"Aveti grija,cei care apartin lui Dumnezeu si lui Hristos sunt cu episcopul.Si cei care se caiesc si vin in Biserica,vor fi si ei ai Lui si vor trai dupa Legea lui Iisus. Nu va inselati,fratilor:daca cineva urmeaza un schismatic,nu va mosteni Imparatia Cerurilor. Daca cineva are o doctrina straina,se impotriveste patimii.Deci,aveti grija,sa folositi o singura Euharistie,pentru ca,orice ati face,sa faceti potrivit lui Dumnezeu: pentru ca e o singura Carne a Domnului Nostru si un singur potir pentru impartasania cu Sangele Sau;un altar, un episcop cu prezbiterii si diaconii.
-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.
anul 148-Sfantul Iustin Martirul
"Noi nu primim acestea ca paine normala si vin normal;ci ca pe Iisus Hristos,Mantuitorul nostru,incarnat prin Cuvantul lui Dumnezeu,care a luat carne si sange pentru mantuirea noastra,deci am crezut dintotdeauna ca mancarea consacrata de Cuvantul rugaciunii,care vine de la El,din care carnea si sangele nostrum sunt hranite si transformate,este carnea si sangele a acelui Iisus intrupat. “
"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

anul 180-Sfantul Irineu din Lyon

"Painea care vine de pe pamant,prin invocarea lui Dumnezeu,nu mai e paine normala,ci Euharistie,care consta in doua realitati,pamanteasca si cereasca,deci,trupurile noastre,primind Euharistia,nu mai sunt coruptibile,pentru ca au speranta invierii.”
-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis". Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D.


Anul 200-"Dar ce folos au aceia care cred ca painea pentru care multumim e Trupul Domnului si vinul,Sangele Lui,daca nu cred ca El e Fiul lui Dumnezeu? Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18, 2 (c. A.D. 200).

Anul 200-Sfantul Clement din Alexandria

" Sangele Domnului,fara indoiala,e indoit.Exista Sangele Sau trupesc,prin care suntem scapati de pacate si Sangele Lui spiritual,cel cu care suntem unsi.Aceasta inseamna ca sa bei Sangele lui Iisus inseamna sa devii,sit u,nemuritor.Puterea Cuvantului este Duhul,asa cum sangele e puterea trupului.Asa cum vinul e amestecat cu apa,Duhul e amestecat cu omul.Vinul cu apa ne hraneste in credinta,in timp ce celalalt,Duhul,ne duce la nemurire.Unirea celor doua-a bauturii si a Cuvantului-se numeste Euharistie,un dar excellent si vrednic de lauda.Cei care se impartasesc din el,cu credinta,sunt sfintiti in trup si suflet.Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. Prin vointa Tatalui,dumnezeiescul amestec,omul,este,in mod misterios,unit cu Duhul si cu Cuvantul.
-"The Instructor of the Children". [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,
"El spune:”Mancati Trupul Meu” si “Beti Sangele Meu”.Domnul ne hraneste cu aceasta hrana de natura intima.El ne trimite Carnea Sa si Sangele Lui.Si nimic nu lipseste pentru cresterea fiilor Lui.O,mister incredibil!”.
-"The Instructor of the Children" [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D.. ,
anul 246-Sfantul Ciprian din Cartagina

"Mielul,in Iesirea,trebuia sa fie mancat intr-o singura casa.Dumnezeu spune:Intr-o casa trebuie sa fie mancat,carnea lui nu trebuie aruncata afara”.' Carnea si Sangele lui Hristos nu pot fi aruncate afara,credinciosii neavand alta casa in afara de Biserica(Ortodoxa).
-"The Unity of the Universal Church". Ch.8, circa 249-258 A.D.,
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Vechi 07.04.2010, 18:22:53
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Extraordinare dovezi Ioana,la doar 100..200 de ani de Mantuitorul.Adica mai putin cat e de acum pana in vremea domnitorului Cuza.Se pare ca aceasta slujba primordiala a Bisericii ,s-a format foarte rapid in felul in care o stim noi astazi.Si chiar daca nu a aparut la fel de explicit formulata la Apostoli ,iat-o la anul 100..140 deja formata.
Ce pacat ca protestantii vor zice ca sunt ori document false,ori adevarate dar aceia care ii numim noi sfinti erau doar niste rataciti,si ratacirea patrunsese deja in Biserica lui Hristos.Deci conceptia lor e ca din anul 100 (iata!) pana in anul 1600 Biserica a fost intr-o mare ratacire ,caci nu a respectat strict Biblia,si a adaugat invataturi care nu sunt explicit in NT(desi importanta cinei crestine se regaseste si la ap Pavel)
Orcum foarte utile aceste extrase din istoria foarte timpurie pentru cei ce cred.
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Vechi 07.04.2010, 19:57:40
andreicozia andreicozia is offline
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Lucrurile nu sunt asa de simple.
Ebionitii care considerau ca sacrificiul animal si cultul singelui era un adaos mincinos la VT, un fals, au facut dintotdeauna impartasania cu APA ! ! ! si au considerat impreuna cu Iacob Apostolul cel Drept a lui Hristos ca Mintuitorul a venit sa desfiinteze acest sacrificu animal asa cum de altfel a si facut-o!

Ca urmare Iacob si altii care au ramas in Ierusalim si urmau cu sfintenie reguile iudaice, circumcizia, regulile kosher-ului si altele se impartaseau cu apa conform scripturii despre Iisus a ebionitilor(Panarion 30.16.5), "Am venit sa distrug sacrificiile"

Cele de mai sus sunt in asentimentul crestinilor deoarece absolut toate sunt in spiritul exclusiv al Sf Pavel care de unul singur fara paostoli a instaurat Impartasania cu VIN si piine nu apa si piine asa cum ar fi trebuit sa fie conform ideii de eliminare a sacrificiului de SINGE!Omiliile 11.15).
De aici de la acest conflict de mincare a resturilor ofertelor catre idoli unde Pavel anunta comunitatea ca este permis sa se manince (Romani 14 si Corinteni 8-10) este enuntat decretul Apostolic impotriva lui Pavel...si frictiunile care au urmat.




Acesta este alt subiect delicat care ar trebui ridicat la urmatorul sinod ecumenic.

De ce dam sugarilor alcool? ...si incalcam legile tarilor civilizate dind pruncilor si copiiilor mici sa bea vin?
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Vechi 07.04.2010, 20:11:54
anna21 anna21 is offline
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Lucrurile nu sunt asa de simple.
Ebionitii care considerau ca sacrificiul animal si cultul singelui era un adaos mincinos la VT, un fals, au facut dintotdeauna impartasania cu APA ! ! ! si au considerat impreuna cu Iacob Apostolul cel Drept a lui Hristos ca Mintuitorul a venit sa desfiinteze acest sacrificu animal asa cum de altfel a si facut-o!

Ca urmare Iacob si altii care au ramas in Ierusalim si urmau cu sfintenie reguile iudaice, circumcizia, regulile kosher-ului si altele se impartaseau cu apa conform scripturii despre Iisus a ebionitilor(Panarion 30.16.5), "Am venit sa distrug sacrificiile"

Cele de mai sus sunt in asentimentul crestinilor deoarece absolut toate sunt in spiritul exclusiv al Sf Pavel care de unul singur fara paostoli a instaurat Impartasania cu VIN si piine nu apa si piine asa cum ar fi trebuit sa fie conform ideii de eliminare a sacrificiului de SINGE!Omiliile 11.15).
De aici de la acest conflict de mincare a resturilor ofertelor catre idoli unde Pavel anunta comunitatea ca este permis sa se manince (Romani 14 si Corinteni 8-10) este enuntat decretul Apostolic impotriva lui Pavel...si frictiunile care au urmat.
1. Unde ai gasit Panarionul pe net?
(eu nu am gasit pana azi nici macar un Molitfelnic online, dar'mite altele..) Da un link, te rog, sa citim si noi despre ce este vorba.
(Panarion = scrierere impotriva EREZIILOR din primele trei secole dupa Hristos.. deci este foarte important sa mergem la sursa)

2. spui "Omiliile 11.15"... Omiliile cui? Da un link, daca ai!

3. Te contrazici in idei: tu ai sustinut ca Sf. Euharistie nu este cu adevarat Sf. Trup si Sange (da cel cu globule rosii) al Mantuitorului, ci doar un fel de corp astral?!! sper ca tin bine minte (la nevoie caut postarea ta).
Deci unde jertfa daca tu nu crezi ca acolo este Sange, ci crezi ca este doar un simbol?
Din perspectiva ta este doar vin, asa ca nu vad de ce faci referire la eliminarea sacrificiului de sange!
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  #9  
Vechi 07.04.2010, 20:13:08
tricesimusquintus tricesimusquintus is offline
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Acesta este alt subiect delicat care ar trebui ridicat la urmatorul sinod ecumenic.

De ce dam sugarilor alcool? ...si incalcam legile tarilor civilizate dind pruncilor si copiiilor mici sa bea vin?
Într-adevăr un subiect delicat pe care ai avut curajul să-l abordezi. Dacă s-ar fi păstrat modelul instituit de Hristos la Cina cea de Taină, se evitau aceste conflicte ce nici astăzi nu s-au stins (vezi controversa pâine sau azimă). Hristos a dat discipolilor săi "rodul viței" în pahar, și nu alcool. Cel mai potrivit simbol pentru Trupul Său strivit asemenea strugurilor din care a curs sfântul Său sânge curat, nealterat de fermentul păcatului.
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