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  #11  
Vechi 25.05.2013, 10:01:55
MihaiG MihaiG is offline
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În prealabil postat de catalin2 Vezi mesajul
Am observat ca multi catolici nu stiu aceste lucruri " chiar si eu le-am aflat nu de mult, doar auzisem ceva pana atunci", probabil jumatate s-ar converti la ortodoxie.
Și eu am observat că mulți ortodocși nu știu diverse chestii, de exemplu nu știu despre faptul că memoriilor criminalului de război Milan Lukic li s-a făcut lansarea oficială la casa parohială a Catedralei Sfântul Sava din Belgrad (la ora actuală, cea mai mare biserică ortodoxă din lume), cu participarea mai multor preoți ortodocși:

Cine e Milan Lukic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan_Luki%C4%87

Pagina de facebook a lui Milan Lukic, cu fotografii de la promoția cărții: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...8806310&type=1

Last edited by MihaiG; 25.05.2013 at 10:05:36.
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  #12  
Vechi 25.05.2013, 10:17:52
Decebal Decebal is offline
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The Western Press is usually silent about the genocide of Serbian people during the Second World War. Here, on the territory of the Independent State of Croatia arbitrarily delineated by Hitler and Mussolini and separated from Yugoslavia, 2 million and 300 thousand Serbs found themselves under the Nazi regime of Ustashi. This regime was headed by the Catholic Croat agent Pavelic who was sent from Rome. He was one of the most cruel executioners in world history who has ever committed atrocities. Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac of Zagreb, the head of the Roman Catholic Church in Croatia, immediately acknowledged Pavelic, and declared the state headed by him, to be Roman Catholic, in which there should be no place for the Orthodox.

The Ustashi, encouraged by their Papist Primate Stepinac and Croatian clergy, began persecution of the Orthodox Serbs, unimaginable for civilized people, let alone Christians. Hundreds of Roman Catholic clergy took part in killings and all kinds of violent acts. "The brutal nature of the militant Croatian clerical fascism expressed itself in such terrible manifestations as to surpass the horrors of Inquisition in the Middle Ages..."

(...) During the years 1941-1945 the Independent State of Croatia accomplished a monstrous plan publicly formulated by the Ustashi minister Mile Budak: "We will murder one third of Serbs, evict another, and we will convert the rest to the Catholic faith thus turning them into Croats".

In this Roman-Catholic Ustashi land of horrors, where the Orthodox were forced to wear a blue arm-band with the letter "P" ("Pravoslavec" - Engl. Orthodox), similar to the Jews who wore the hexagonal yellow star. During four years Ustashi had tortured and killed about 800.000 Serbs, 40.000 Gypsies and 30.000 Jews, deported 280.000 and forcibly rebaptized 240.000.

With a particularly ferocious hatred the clerical fascists attacked Orthodox churches and Orthodox clergy. They created a special Institution For the Destruction of Orthodox Churches. Almost all Orthodox churches on the territory of the Independent Croatia were destroyed, burned, or converted into Catholic churches. As a whole 450 Orthodox churches suffered destruction in these terrible years in the Independent State of Croatia. In the Uniat diocese of Krizhevac, for example, all Orthodox churches and chapels were turned into Catholic ones. Terrible fate befell Orthodox bishops and hundreds of priests in Croatia. They were either murdered with exceptional fanatical cruelty, or evicted to Serbia.
Ludmilla Perepiolkina, "Ucigași în numele lui Dumnezeu"

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Să ne aducem aminte convertirea forțată în masă la romano-catolicism din Polonia, în perioada dintre cele două războaie mondiale, ca și genocidul celor 700.000 de sârbi ortodocși dintre anii 1941-1945, care a avut loc în ,,statul independent” militant romano-catolic. Ortodocșii din Croația au fost forțați să poarte litera chirilică ,,P” de la pravoslavnici sau ortodocși, precum evreii care au fost forțați să poarte steaua lui David în timpul celui de-al doilea război mondial. Această este o dovadă fără de tăgadă că sârbii au fost exterminați de croații romano-catolici brutali și radicali pur și simplu deoarece ei aparțineau Sfintei noastre Biserici Ortodoxe.
Herman Ivanov-Treenadszaty
http://www.catacombeleortodoxiei.ro
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  #13  
Vechi 25.05.2013, 10:20:08
Decebal Decebal is offline
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Unfortunately, many Orthodox Christians are ignorant of the sufferings of the nearly 750,000 Orthodox Serbian Christians who gave their lives in the defense and confession of the faith during the time of the last world war in the so-called "Independent State of Croatia" and in other parts of German-occupied Yugoslavia at the hands of the Croatian nationalists and other enemies of the Orthodox Church, at the instigation of and with the open participation of the Latin clergy. This persecution was aimed at the complete elimination of the Orthodox Church in these areas. Attempts at forced conversion to Catholicism were joined to a systematic and completely overt destruction of every trace of Orthodoxy. All of this was done in such a fierce and inconceivably brutal manner and in such a short span of time and relatively small geographic area that it is difficult even to imagine. Indeed the characteristics of this recent persecution are unprecedented in the history of the Church after the persecutions of the first centuries. The sacrifice and memory of these martyrs must not be allowed to remain hidden, known only to their fellow Orthodox countrymen, but should be published and commemorated for the edification of all Orthodox Christians.

(...) Very revealing as to the utter fanaticism that gripped the Roman Catholic Church in Croatia during these early days of the war and the infant Croatian state, is this excerpt from the diocesan newspaper of the archdiocese of Sarajevo: "Until now, God spoke through papal encyclicals. And? They closed their ears... Now God has decided to use other methods. He will prepare missions. European missions. World missions. They will be upheld not by priests, but by army commanders. The sermons will be heard with the help of cannons, machine guns, tanks and bombers." The Ustasi were known to have publicly taken oaths in the Catholic churches, pledging to work for the eradication of the Serbs and Orthodoxy. Especially militant and very prominent in the Ustasi were members of the Franciscan Order. Immediately after the proclamation of the Ustasi state, the Croatian primate, Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac of Zagreb, gave his blessing in the name of the Roman Church to the Croatian state and established "close collaboration." (It should be pointed out, however, that the Croatian Catholic Church was, at least officially, speaking for itself at that time. The procedure for obtaining recognition by the Vatican was in full progress, but officially the Vatican still recognized the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and had diplomatic relations with the government-in-exile. In short, the Vatican gave de facto recognition to the Ustasi regime, together will full diplomatic protocol at state occasions, though never official recognition.)

(...) The Ustasi plan called for the extermination of one portion of the Serbian population and for the forced conversion to Roman Catholicism of the other. In either case, the Serbs, as an Orthodox people, had no place in the Catholic Croatian state. This shows that in spite of the presence of widespread National Socialist "Aryan" racist propaganda in Croatia, the hatred for the Serbs was based on their being Orthodox. One Catholic periodical in lauding the head of the Ustasi state, Pavelic, praises the Ustasi "Crusader" (Krizar) organization as "Raised in the spirit of radical Catholicism, which knows no compromises so far as principles are concerned, that never knew what it meant to give in and abandon any part of the program of Croatian nationalism." Thus the program of Serbian conversion and/or liquidation, can be viewed as being in the tradition of the medieval crusades which were launched to stamp out the enemies of the Roman church. Archbishop Stepinac saw the Serbs as being schismatics and an evil "almost greater than Protestantism." Croatia was viewed as a bastion of Roman Catholicism in the Balkans. In 1944 a Berlin newspaper wrote: "An extraordinary ecclesiastical struggle is going on in Croatia. The Ustasi government is persecuting the Orthodox Church and is trying to convert as many Orthodox people as possible to Catholicism by means of intimidation and all kinds of devices. At the opening of the so-called Croat Assembly, Pavelic said that religious freedom did exist in principle, but it did not include the Orthodox Church. Apart from nationalistic reasons, Pavelic endeavored to represent himself as a missionary by virtue of his work on behalf of the church, thus desiring to acquire greater prestige. We still recall his visit to the pope at the time when he was just organizing his 'State'."

(...) During the time of the persecution, nearly 300 Orthodox churches in the territory of the Croatian state were destroyed. In the diocese of Karlovac 173 out of 189 temples were demolished. Others were desecrated by being turned into slaughterhouses, stables and latrines. Still others were given over to the Roman Catholics, as were several of the historic Orthodox monasteries. Many of the damaged churches have been restored by the Serbian Church since the war. Others are still to be repaired and can be seen crumbling and abandoned in Yugoslavia today.

The new Serbian martyrs of World War II included five bishops and at least 177 other clergy martyrs. In all, both clergy and lay, they number about 750,000. The late Bishop Nikolai (Velimirovich), over a quarter of a century ago, inscribed into the Church calendar by his own hand the following notation for the date August 31 (0. S.): "The 700,000 who suffered for the Orthodox faith at the hands of the Roman crusaders and Ustasi during the time of the Second World War. These are the New Serbian Martyrs."

Through their prayers may all the Orthodox be saved and strengthened in the defence of the Faith! Amen.
sursa și mai multe la:

Joachim Wertz, On the Serbian Orthodox New Martyrs of the Second World War. A Brief Historical Background
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/se...ewmartyrs.aspx
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  #14  
Vechi 25.05.2013, 10:36:48
MihaiG MihaiG is offline
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A convicted war criminal who burned alive scores of Bosniak civilians and systematically tortured and raped Bosniak women and under-age girls enjoys the uncritical endorsement of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

The Humanitarian Law Center in Belgrade reports that the Serbian Orthodox Church has hosted a book launch at the parish house of the Cathedral of St. Sava in Belgrade to promote a prison memoir, “Ispovest hačkog suŸnja” (“Testimony of a Hague prisoner”). The book’s author is the convicted war criminal Milan Lukiæ — a ruthless mass murderer and serial rapist. The Belgrade publisher responsible for promoting the launch is the Serbian Radical Party led by ultra–nationalist politician Vojislav ©ečelj. ©ečelj himself is currently on trial at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) in The Hague for crimes against humanity. The manuscript of Lukiæ’s book was smuggled out of the UN Detention Unit illegally.

This is not the first time Serbian Orthodox Church has aligned itself with war criminals. The recently-captured fugitives, former Bosnian Serb General Ratko Mladiæ and Croatian Serb leader Goran HadŸiæ, bragged that the Serbian Orthodox Church helped them evade justice. General Mladiæ is now on trial as the orchestrator of the Bosnian Genocide; Hadzic is on trial for crimes against humanity committed in Croatia. The Serbian Orthodox Church sees itself as the moral compass of the Serbian people. Its incomprehensible and repellent actions suggest that the Church is morally adrift.

In 2009 the International Criminal Tribunal at the Hague found Milan Lukiæ guilty of burning alive more than 120 Bosniak women, children and elderly men in the eastern Bosnian town of Vičegrad. He was sentenced to life imprisonment for his terrible crimes.

On 14 June 1992, a group of victims, most of them from the same village, were locked into one room of a house on Pionirska Street, Vičegrad, which was then set on fire. Milan Lukiæ was found to have placed an explosive device in the room which set the house ablaze. He then shot at people as they tried to escape the burning house. At least 59 women, young children and elderly people were burned alive, among them a 2-day-old baby.

Lukiæ was also found guilty of burning alive at least 60 women, children and elderly men two weeks later, on 27 June 1992, in a house in the Vičegrad settlement of Bikavac. He and other members of his paramilitary group, ‘White Eagles’, forced the civilians inside the house, blocked all the exits and threw in several explosive devices and petrol, setting the house on fire.

“The perpetration by Milan Lukiæ and [his cousin] Sredoje Lukiæ of crimes in this case is characterised by a callous and vicious disregard for human life,” presiding Judge Patrick Robinson noted.

He observed that, “In the all too long, sad and wretched history of man’s inhumanity to man, the Pionirska street and Bikavac fires must rank high. At the close of the twentieth century, a century marked by war and bloodshed on a colossal scale, these horrific events stand out for the viciousness of the incendiary attack, for the obvious premeditation and calculation that defined it, for the sheer callousness and brutality of herding, trapping and locking the victims in the two houses, thereby rendering them helpless in the ensuing inferno, and for the degree of pain and suffering inflicted on the victims as they were burnt alive.”

Milan Lukiæ also participated in systematic sexual assaults on Bosniak women and under-age girls in “rape camps” in and around Vičegrad. Most notably the Vilina Vlas spa hotel on the outskirts of Vičegrad was used as a rape camp while it was, on Lukiæ ‘s own admission, his military unit’s command post. Approximately 200 women and under-age girls were detained in Vilina Vlas. The Association of Women Victims of War — led by rape survivor Bakira Haseèiæ — believes that fewer than ten women prisoners survived their detention.

Rape and sexual slavery charges were added to the indictment against Lukiæ less than a month before the trial. The day before proceedings were due to begin, the Trial Chamber ruled that the accused did not have enough time to mount an adequate defence.
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  #15  
Vechi 25.05.2013, 11:07:04
catalin2 catalin2 is offline
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Userul catolic iar nu intelege despre ce vorbim, a luat-o pe aratura, ca de obicei. Discutam despre implicarea clerului catolic, nu despre ce crime ar fi facut Napoleon sau ustasii sau Hitler. In al doilea rand topicul are alt subiect. Rog adminul sa observe semnatura sa.
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  #16  
Vechi 25.05.2013, 11:12:44
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Mihnea Dragomir Mihnea Dragomir is offline
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În prealabil postat de catalin2 Vezi mesajul
In al doilea rand topicul are alt subiect.
Eu credeam ca subiectul este o cronologie mai putin cunoscuta a ortodoxiei in cel de al XX-lea veac. Iata, desi eu stiam de implicarea clerului ortodox sarb in numeroase atrocitati, nu cunosteam acest aspect concret. Nu e asta subiectul topicului ? Nu vad sa se intituleze cumva legat de clerul catolic.
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  #17  
Vechi 25.05.2013, 11:23:21
catalin2 catalin2 is offline
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În prealabil postat de Mihnea Dragomir Vezi mesajul
Eu credeam ca subiectul este o cronologie mai putin cunoscuta a ortodoxiei in cel de al XX-lea veac. Iata, desi eu stiam de implicarea clerului ortodox sarb in numeroase atrocitati, nu cunosteam acest aspect concret. Nu e asta subiectul topicului ? Nu vad sa se intituleze cumva legat de clerul catolic.
Si unde ati vazut implicarea clerului sarb? Eu am citit o singura data despre asta mai demult, un preot era acuzat ca il gazduise pe un militar sarb (sau paramilitar).
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  #18  
Vechi 25.05.2013, 11:31:41
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Mihnea Dragomir Mihnea Dragomir is offline
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În prealabil postat de catalin2 Vezi mesajul
Si unde ati vazut implicarea clerului sarb?
Presupunand ca nu ati citit cele reproduse de dl MihaiG (poate ca nu cunoasteti engleza ?) va fac un rezumat pe romaneste: e vorba de un cunoscut criminal si violator sarb, pe numele lui Milan Lucici (de altfel condamnat de un tribunal competent, pentru crime de razboi) care a scris o carte. Cartea a fost lansata la casa parohiala din cea mai mare catedrala ortodoxa din lume, care e in Serbia.
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  #19  
Vechi 25.05.2013, 11:43:35
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Daca tot suntem la sectiunea referitoare la istoria Bisericii m-am gandit sa reamintesc entuziastilor faptul ca multi credinciosi se intreaba ce s-a intimplat intre momentul terminarii epocii apostolice si inceputul epocii patristice.Este o perioada de care se vorbeste foarte putin dar,dupa cum arata regretatul preot D.Fecioru,exista un corp intreg de manuscrise,reunite sub titlul ,,Scrierile Parintilor Apostolici"(Invatatura celor 12 apostoli,cele doua epistole catre corinteni a lui Clement Romanul,Didahia,epistola lui Barnaba si cele ale lui Ignatie Teoforul,epistola catre filipeni a lui Policarp al Smirnei,Pastorul lui Herma,Epistola catre Diognet,samd).Dupa cum arata reputatul teolog mentionat ,,scrierile Parintilor Apostolici fac tranzitie intre scrierile revelate ale NT si literatura patristica."Ele nu sunt scrise intr-un singur loc,ci pe tot cuprinsul Imperiului Roman,din Siria,Asia Mica si Palestina pana in Alexandria si Roma si prin urmare va pot oferi o imagine de ansamblu a vietii Bisericii Crestine a acelor timpuri.Se mai arata faptul ca unele dintre ele s-au bucurat de o asemenea pretuire in comunitatile de credinciosi din acele timpuri incat s-a pus problema includerii lor in canonul NT(fara a se limita la cazul celor doua epistole ale lui Clement Romanul).O sa inchei tot cu citat din parintele Fecioru in speranta ca samanta dorintei de a-i cunoaste va rodi:

,,Cu toate ca scrierile Parintilor apostolici sunt creatii ale unor imprejurari speciale ale epocii in care au aparut,ele sunt de o importanta deosebita;sunt oglinda,transmisa peste veacuri,a vietuirii crestine din primele doua secole;sunt marturii ale dragostei pana la jertfa suprema pt Hristos(...)Nu gasim in ele o teologie inalta dar descoperim in fiecare cuvant din aceste scrieri un suflet arzator pentru credinta-n Hristos,descoperim o inima plina de inflacarare pentru adevarul pe care l-au acceptat si in care cred;pentru ei Hristos este totul".

Spor la lectura si discutii ziditoare cat mai dese,aceste scrieri chiar merita citite,aprofundate si intelese prin traire in viata de credinta.Numai bine!
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  #20  
Vechi 25.05.2013, 11:48:52
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Mihnea Dragomir Mihnea Dragomir is offline
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In principiu, dl catalin are dreptate, doar gresind exemplul ales. A ajuns fiecare sa scrie nu numai ce vrea, dar si unde vrea. Iata ca pe un topic despre cronologia Bisericii Ortodoxe in secolul XX apare Pelerinul Rasaritului cu... Didahia!

Oameni buni, exista fire de discutie pentru ce vrem sa postam. Si, daca nu exista (presupunand ca mai intai am cercetat daca nu exista deja), atunci putem deschide unul nou.
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