Sunt ateu, intrebati-ma orice!

În prealabil postat de Imogene

Mersi de raspuns, topcat. Si sa inteleg ca tu nu crezi in nici una dintre divinitatile "create" de om pana acum. Incerc sa-mi dau seama care e diferenta dintre ateism si agnosticism acum. :)

Agnosticul spune ca poate exista, poate nu, dumnezeul crestin, nici unul nu va putea dovedi ceva pro sau contra. Eu spun ca cu cit incerci sa iti definesti mai exact deitatea cu atit pot demonstra ca e mai falsa.
Si aici intervine existenta raului: nu as putea spune ceva impotriva unei deitati indiferente sau ne-omnipotente, dar impotriva unei deitati omnibenevolente si omnipotente si omniprezente pot aduce argumente logice.

[glykys]

Da da da da, sigur, sigur, Topcat. Si cand ne-om trezi in fata mortii, atunci sa vezi ce logica mai functioneaza!

În prealabil postat de glykys

Da da da da, sigur, sigur, Topcat. Si cand ne-om trezi in fata mortii, atunci sa vezi ce logica mai functioneaza!

Pai tocmai ce ziceam ca logica nu mai functioneaza intr-un creier pe moarte

[Imogene]

În prealabil postat de topcat

Agnosticul spune ca poate exista, poate nu, dumnezeul crestin, nici unul nu va putea dovedi ceva pro sau contra. Eu spun ca cu cit incerci sa iti definesti mai exact deitatea cu atit pot demonstra ca e mai falsa.
Si aici intervine existenta raului: nu as putea spune ceva impotriva unei deitati indiferente sau ne-omnipotente, dar impotriva unei deitati omnibenevolente si omnipotente si omniprezente pot aduce argumente logice.

"Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions."
..
Agnostic theists identify themselves both as agnostics and as followers of particular religions, viewing agnosticism as a framework for thinking about the nature of belief and their relation to revealed truths. Some nonreligious people, such as author Philip Pullman, identify as both agnostic and atheist."

Deci poti fi ateu si agnostic in acelasi timp, cum poti si religios si agnostic in acelasi timp.

Adica crestinii sint teisti cu privire la dumnezeul crestin si atei cu privire la Zamolxe?

[stereox]

În prealabil postat de Imogene

Deci poti fi ateu si agnostic in acelasi timp, cum poti si religios si agnostic in acelasi timp.

In contextul asta, trebuie discutat despre "deism" si "teism".

Deismul spune ca exista un Dumnezeu, dar el nu este cel descris de religiile lumii. Este pur si simplu creatorul universului, dar nu ii poate fi atribuita vreuna din proprietatile concepute de om: bunatate, iubire, creator de legi morale etc.
In acest sens, un deist care spune "exista un Dumnezeu, dar noi nu-l vom putea cunoaste vreodata" este un agnostic.

Teismul spune ca exista un Dumnezeu si el se cheama Zeus, sau Allah, sau orice alt nume si el are niste proprietati, a lasat niste legi, ne va recompensa cu viata eterna etc.
Crestinismul ortodox este o forma particulara de teism.
In acest sens, o persoana care spune "exista un Dumnezeu, si El este cel descris de crestinismul ortodox" este un teist.
O persoana care spune "Dumnezeul crestin ortodox este plin de contradictii interne si nu are nicio logica. Un astfel de Dumnezeu nu poate exista" este un a-teist :)

Asta inseamna ca poate exista un ateu care sa fie si agnostic in acelasi timp.

[Imogene]

Multumesc pentru explicatii, stereox. Ai explicat pe intelesul meu. :) Ma uitam in wikipedia si am vazut ca explica tipurile de agnosticism. Tu unde te situezi?

"Agnosticism can be subdivided into several categories. Recently suggested variations include:

Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism")

the view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."

Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")
the view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out."

Apathetic agnosticism (also called Pragmatic agnosticism)
the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.[citation needed]

Agnostic atheism
the view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but do not believe in any.[15]

Agnostic theism (also called "spiritual agnosticism")
the view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

Ignosticism
the view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition isn't coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable. A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or a nontheist until a better definition of theism is put forth"

În prealabil postat de Imogene

Multumesc pentru explicatii, stereox. Ai explicat pe intelesul meu. :) Ma uitam in wikipedia si am vazut ca explica tipurile de agnosticism. Tu unde te situezi?

"Agnosticism can be subdivided into several categories. Recently suggested variations include:

Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent agnosticism")

the view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."

Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")
the view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out."

Apathetic agnosticism (also called Pragmatic agnosticism)
the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.[citation needed]

Agnostic atheism
the view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but do not believe in any.[15]

Agnostic theism (also called "spiritual agnosticism")
the view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

Ignosticism
the view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition isn't coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable. A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or a nontheist until a better definition of theism is put forth"

Ar trebui sa raminem la niste chestii practice: nu pot nega o deitate inventata de martieni, atita timp cit nu stiu de ea

[Imogene]

Ce anume te face sa negi Dumnezeul ortodox?

În prealabil postat de Imogene

Ce anume te face sa negi Dumnezeul ortodox?

pe scurt, ratiunea cu tot ce ea implica
de exemplu, si am avut discutii pe tema asta, nu pot accepta afirmatia ca un izvor e tamaduitor numai pentru ca unei persoane i s-a parut ca s-a insanatosit dupa ce a baut din acea apa
dar nu vreau sa deschid discutii incheiate mai demult