Miscarea de reinnoire carismatica

[stefan florin]

În prealabil postat de Penticostalul Traditional

Daca un episcop da o invatatura in Biserica, aceea invatatura este invatatura Bisericii. Daca este o erezie nicimcitoare, atunci ceilalti episcopi au OBLIGATIA sa ia masuri in extrema urgenta, sa infiereze imediat aceea invatatura ca fiind erezie iar episcopul cu pricina sa fie excomunicat. Daca nu asculta, nu isi retrage cuvintele si nu se pocaieste, desigur.

acest lucru s-a intamplat

Daca insa episcopul invata ceva si ceilalti episcopi nu iau nicio atitudine, aceea este invatatura Bisericii.

daca un episcop spune sa votezi cu un anumit partid politic, acest lucru devine "invatatura" Bisericii?

[Patrie si Credinta]

În prealabil postat de Penticostalul Traditional

Ce este regula Sf. Vincentiu?

Regula Sf. Vincentiu(n. ?, d. cca.  445), cunoscuta de multi sub numele de Canonul Vincentian, este o regula scrisa de Vincentiu de Lerins, in cartea sa Commonitorium, pt stabilirea dogmei adevarate, in caz de impas:

(1) I have continually given the greatest pains and diligence to inquiring, from the greatest possible number of men outstanding in holiness and in doctrine, how I can secure a kind of fixed and, as it were, general and guiding principle for distinguishing the true Catholic Faith from the degraded falsehoods of heresy. And the answer that I receive is always to this effect; that if I wish, or indeed if anyone wishes, to detect the deceits of heretics that arise and to avoid their snares and to keep healthy and sound in a healthy faith, we ought, with the Lord's help, to fortify our faith in a twofold manner, firstly, that is, by the authority of God's Law, then by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

(2) Here, it may be, someone will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and is in itself abundantly sufficient, what need is there to join to it the interpretation of the Church? The answer is that because of the very depth of Scripture all men do not place one identical interpretation upon it. The statements of the same writer are explained by different men in different ways, so much so that it seems almost possible to extract from it as many opinions as there are men. Novatian expounds in one way, Sabellius in another, Donatus in another, Arius, Eunomius and Macedonius in another, Photinus, Apollinaris and Priscillian in another, Jovinian, Pelagius and Caelestius in another, and latterly Nestorius in another. Therefore, because of the intricacies of error, which is so multiform, there is great need for the laying down of a rule for the exposition of Prophets and Apostles in accordance with the standard of the interpretation of the Church Catholic.

(3) Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly 'Catholic,' as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality [i.e. oecumenicity], antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, bishops and doctors alike.

(4) What then will the Catholic Christian do, if a small part of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal Faith? The answer is sure. He will prefer the healthiness of the whole body to the morbid and corrupt limb. But what if some novel contagion try to infect the whole Church, and not merely a tiny part of it? Then he will take care to cleave to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any deceit of novelty. What if in antiquity itself two or three men, or it may be a city, or even a whole province be detected in error? Then he will take the greatest care to prefer the decrees of the ancient General Councils, if there are such, to the irresponsible ignorance of a few men. But what if some error arises regarding which nothing of this sort is to be found? Then he must do his best to compare the opinions of the Fathers and inquire their meaning, provided always that, though they belonged to diverse times and places, they yet continued in the faith and communion of the one Catholic Church; and let them be teachers approved and outstanding. And whatever he shall find to have been held, approved and taught, not by one or two only but by all equally and with one consent, openly, frequently, and persistently, let him take this as to be held by him without the slightest hesitation.

Acum, recunosc ca anumite probleme tot vor aparea(ca ne-am tinut de mana cu sustinutatori ai suprematismului papal sau al altor erori timp de secole e o critica valida), dar consider ca in linii mari, va arata forma generala a Bisericii.

[Ali Baba]

În prealabil postat de Penticostalul Traditional

Ce este regula Sf. Vincentiu?

asta e:

semper, ubique, et ab omnibus

adica ce este crezut intotdeauna, pretutindeni si de catre toti.

[catalin2]

Discutia pornise de la Biserica - stalp si temelie a adevarului si ce cred protestantii.
Acest pastor (baptist, cred) spune ceea ce am spus si eu, ca acest pasaj se refera la invatatura de credinta, care este temelia Bisericii. De asemenea, mai spune ca unele biserici au alterat aceasta invatatura (probabil se refera la catolici si la Biserica Ortodoxa) si ca, astfel, nu mai erau biserici. Exact ce am spus si eu, protestantii (mai ales neoprotestantii) spun ca pana la ei nu a mai exista Biserica, dupa primele trei secole. https://moldovacrestina.md/biserica-...ia-adevarului/
Sunt o pierdere de timp discutiile cu penticostalul, numai neadevaruri spune, apoi ii acuza pe altii ca ar minti.

[catalin2]

Pentru ca a fost inchis topicul despre vorbirea in limbi, intre timp am citit mai atent ce spun sursele penticostale. Acestia spun ca in 1 Corinteni 14 se arata ca vorbirea in limbi era intr-o limba necunoscuta, nu o limba a unui popor. La fel spun si azi, ca ei vorbesc o limba necunoscuta. Acest lucru l-a sustinut si penticostalul la inceput, apoi a schimbat si m-a acuzat ca eu as minti.
In legatura cu vorbirea in limbi si rugaciunea, penticostalii spun ca ei se roaga in limbi, sustinand ca asa scrie in 1 Corinteni 14, ca vorbirea in limbi e rugaciune, o vorbire doar cu Domnul. Ei spun ca talamcitorul spune mesaje si talamceste, nu si vorbitorul in limbi, care se roaga. Doar la Pogorare s-ar fi adresat si oamenilor, deci nu era doar rugaciune. Penticostalul a sustinut aceste lucruri la inceput, apoi, cand i-am spus ca acolo scrie ca vorbirea in limbi este proorocie, invatatura, cunostinta, dupa ce a ocolit raspunsul de vreo cateva ori a inceput sa spuna ca e si proorocie si sa ma acuze, din nou, ca eu as minti, ca el a sustinut asta de la inceput, desi m-a contrazis cand spuneam asa ceva. Nu mai poate avea nicio credibilitate, e ciudat ca poate face cineva asa ceva.

[Penticostalul Traditional]

În prealabil postat de catalin2

Pentru ca a fost inchis topicul despre vorbirea in limbi, intre timp am citit mai atent ce spun sursele penticostale.

Deci pana acum ai citit mai putin atent dar vorbeai cu siguranta infailibilitatii.
Eu iti recomand sa citesti si mai atent.
Inca NU stii nimic din ceea ce invata penticostalii cu privire la vorbirea in alte limbi.

Insa daca vrei sa stii, trebuie sa intrebi.
Sau sa mergi la sursele lor. Altfel colportezi stiri fake, la fel ca si pana acum.

În prealabil postat de catalin2

Nu mai poate avea nicio credibilitate, e ciudat ca poate face cineva asa ceva.

Daca, in mod necugetat iti inchipui ca denigrarile tale ieftine ma decredibilzeaza pe mine, te informez ca te inseli. Si ca iti consumi energia pe ceva ce nu merita.

[Penticostalul Traditional]

În prealabil postat de catalin2

vorbirea in limbi era intr-o limba necunoscuta
vorbirea in limbi e rugaciune
vorbirea in limbi este proorocie, invatatura, cunostinta

Asa este frate Cataline.
Ma surprinde placut ca un ortodox s-a adancit in studiul Scrpturilor pe aceasta tema si a ajuns la concluzii juste.

În prealabil postat de catalin2

Penticostalul a sustinut aceste lucruri la inceput

Da, dar de la el era de asteptat. Macar atat lucru sa stie. Vorbirea in limbi este o trasatura distinctiva a confesiunii lor.